Opinion | ‘Antihero’ or ‘Felon’: 11 Undecided Voters Struggle With How to See Trump Post-Verdict (2024)

Moderator, Frank Luntz

What’s your reaction to the guilty verdict in the Trump trial?

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

Surprised and a little disappointed.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

Insignificant in my decision making.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Just. A jury heard the case, looked at the facts and rendered a verdict.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

Resignation.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Baffled. This whole situation is just so weird. A former president on trial? How did we get to this point?

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

Surprised and concerned.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

Unprecedented.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

Not surprised, given Trump’s behavior of late.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Surprised and concerned.

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

Concern about the future of America.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

Uneasy.

Is the verdict the best of democracy or the worst of democracy? Is the verdict the best of democracy or the worst of democracy?

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

This is the system, whether we like it or not. The prosecution presented arguments. Was it upsetting as an American to have our former president being investigated and then prosecuted? Absolutely. But ultimately, it was adjudicated by a group of his peers in Manhattan. The system worked. I don’t necessarily have to like the outcome.

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

They’ve been going after Trump since he was elected in 2016. Democracy is supposed to be about the will of the people. I don’t really think the majority of the people in this country wanted to see him prosecuted on these charges.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

I’m kind of proud that the jury was brave enough to convict a president.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I’m an attorney. Say what you want about the charging decision and the prosecutorial discretion of Alvin Bragg, but at the end of the day, 12 people in a box — and you never know what 12 people in a box are going to do — were able to come to a decision.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

To me, this is the worst of democracy. The fact that a felon can actually run for president hurts the general population.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

I lean toward this being the best of democracy. I would have been too terrified of voting in that direction if I was in that jury.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

What would you have been afraid of?

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Social media people chasing after me, getting doxxed, having people show up to my house. I’m kind of middle of the road, but there’s a couple people across the street from me with some pretty scary flags hanging up this time of year. I don’t want to, next time I go to the grocery store, have somebody go, “Oh, that’s the guy!”

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Do you think your friends and family generally would agree with your view about the Trump verdict?

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

In my family, they see it as anyone who’s for Trump is an affront to their own beliefs. So the division is real.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

I have the opposite issue. I can’t tell you the number of people that I heard from right after the verdict who intend to support Trump, give money. They thought this was a witch hunt.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

My family, they do not understand how I am independent and have not made up my mind yet. You’d think that maybe that’s a good thing, taking time to make a decision.

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

“How is he going to run the presidency from jail?” is what I’m thinking. It kind of doesn’t make sense to vote for him.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

So now it’s down to voting for the convicted felon or voting for Biden, the super-old, out-of-touch guy. I don’t really like either of those choices, but I think I’m going to go with the old guy losing his mind over the convicted felon who’s probably going to be out for blood as soon as he’s elected. It’s like I’m in Poland trying to choose between the Nazis and the Soviets. I’m just going to flip a coin, but probably voting for Biden. I don’t know if I’ll vote.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

For me, it is exactly what Ben said. It’s the real fear of the retribution. I think we got skin-to-teeth thin on our democracy staying together. And this time, he knows where the pitfalls are in the places that he needs to appoint people who can really get retribution.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

This is the fearmongering that the left wants. They want you to be swayed.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

No, it’s not.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

They want you to say, “He’s a convicted felon, so maybe I shouldn’t vote for him.” Well, he’s not going to go to jail, so you don’t have to wonder about how that would work.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

Jonathan, I’m a smart guy. No left-wing or right-wing media has any effect on the way that I think about things. I am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps infantry. And it’s not that anyone is scaring me. It is what I have seen and what people in positions of power are capable of in the justice sphere. There are just as many people in the right wing that say nothing happened on Jan. 6. And you can look at the tapes. It is real. People died. And that was over an election.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

No left-wing party or person or individual caused Donald Trump to do a payoff.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

But it’s such a small, petty crime to charge a former president with.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

It is. It is, yes.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

And so we’ve weaponized the justice system to attack our political opponents.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

No, that was prosecutorial discretion. Alvin Bragg is the only person that is deciding these things. That is not a left-wing agenda, Jonathan.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

Is Alvin Bragg not trying to curry the favor of those on the left wing by targeting Donald Trump?

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I know a lot of prosecutors, and I highly doubt that.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Hold on. Jorge and Hilary both indicated that, in some way, this will have an impact on how they’re thinking about the election.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

I am somebody who is desperate to try to honor the system. He’s now a convicted felon. I cannot have the president be a convicted felon. Full stop. Therefore, he is disqualified for me. Despite my absolute concerns about the mental fitness and policy disagreements that I have with Joe Biden, I cannot envision casting a vote for Donald Trump.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

He’s disqualified for me, too. As a president, you’re supposed to be setting an example, not making an example of yourself in a negative way. Second of all, with regard to what Hilary said about he’s a convicted felon, OK. The particular charge is not something that I would think qualifies or disqualifies you for being a president. Everybody bribes someone, somewhere. But there’s two other cases pending. And again, innocent until proven guilty, but they’re much more serious charges of the Jan. 6 insurrection and then trying to fix an election.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

But that's the thing. To say, OK, today is the nail in the coffin because he's now classified as a convicted felon is superficial because he lost the E. Jean Carroll case and he was accused and found liable of much more heinous crimes than filing a wrong financial document. That wasn't enough? That wasn't disqualifying?

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

Donald Trump is corrupt in a way that he wasn’t good enough at it, and he failed.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

The guy tried to write off his bribe, and OK, maybe it’s not illegal, but he’s supposed to set a freaking example for everyone. And as far as p*rn stars go for affairs, he could have set a better example for who to have an affair with. But the dude tried to write off a bribe — that doesn’t seem wrong to you in the slightest?

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Wendy, you’re laughing.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

This has been the most stressful presidential election process since Donald Trump has run for office. And some people, they’re on the sidelines. They’re not even going to try to vote.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Jorge, you were the last one to raise your hand saying this might have some impact on your vote.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Trump is not reliable. And I don’t think Biden is in his brightest years, either. So I’m guessing the only choice right now is Kennedy.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

Brain-worm Bobby.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Yes.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

You have to remember why Trump is the choice of millions of people. Trump represents a shock to the system. His supporters don’t hold him to the same ethical standards. He’s the antihero, the Soprano, the “Breaking Bad,” the guy who does bad things, who is a bad guy but does them on behalf of the people he represents.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

And in 2016 I voted for him for that very reason. Drain the swamp.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

As did I.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

Me, too.

Was this trial a rigged trial? Was this trial a rigged trial?

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

I wouldn’t say it was rigged, but I wouldn’t go as far as to say that it was fair. There were problems. Bad witnesses. I’m not sure that the jury made the right decision.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

What’s your disagreement with the jury?

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

That they listened to witnesses like Cohen and took him at his word.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Shantel, you don’t know whether it’s rigged or fair. Why not?

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

I definitely agree that the whole reason for the trial was to get him politically. But I’m not a lawyer. I wasn’t in the courtroom. I have to just trust the system. And if it was wrong, it’ll come out with an appeal. But I don’t have an authority to say definitively that it was rigged.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

I think Donald Trump would never have a fair trial in New York because, like many people said, most of the jury was probably Democrat. It’s like if we have a trial for Biden in Houston.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

We’re all regular people with regular jobs. If any of us all did, like, one-thousandth of what this guy did for being on trial, the financial stuff, the forms, the bribes, the meeting with people, we all would have been fired. We all would have been out on our butts, applying for jobs at grocery stores or driving Uber or whatnot. You’re saying it’s all, like, a political theater and farce and whatnot. But he was having an affair with a p*rn star and not a particularly attractive one at that. There are so many wonderful p*rn stars out there.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

That’s not a crime.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

After talking to you, Jonathan, I’m thinking about voting for Biden now.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

Trump is not a moral compass to a lot of his supporters. He’s the bad guy that’ll do things on our behalf. He’s the Tony Soprano or the Walter White —

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Don’t bring my “Sopranos” into this.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

He’s an antihero.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Come on, man.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

OK, hold on. Hold on. Hilary, you’re grimacing right now. Explain why.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Jonathan, when you brought up “The Sopranos,” I got it. He’s the antihero. And that’s why I cast a vote in 2016 for him, though I did expect at the time that a lot of the shtick was just shtick and that once elected, if elected, no grown 71-year-old man would comport himself in the way he did. What does that portend, though, for a democracy if we have nothing but antiheroes, going forward? That these people, these complicated, murky, ambiguous, morally ambiguous people, are the models? And maybe that’s putting it mildly and gently. What does that portend for our system of government?

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Describe American democracy in a single sentence.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

It’s on a dangerous road.

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

It is fair and just, and people are awakening now.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

Absolute hyperbolic chaos.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

It’s a system in which the majority is supposed to rule, but there are those who are unethically controlling it.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

The lesser of the evils but the evils nonetheless.

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

Messy, imperfect, but it works.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Watching the Hindenburg land on the Titanic.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

Our democracy currently is on life support.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Will the center hold?

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

A perpetual work in progress that needs testing every now and then.

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

A very polarized system that is severely broken.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Were you, your family, your friends actually talking about the trial and paying attention to it, or was it mostly background noise?

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

I got a politically divided family, and the more liberal side has created bingo boards for our other family members that we’ve been doing at gatherings whenever they talk about the trial.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

I work with a lot of young co-workers, various genders, backgrounds, races. And especially the ones who are under 40 seemed actually, strangely, really energized. And these were not Trump supporters at all in 2016 or 2020, but they are surprisingly seeming like they’re open to the idea of voting for Trump this time around, which I’m very surprised about. My co-workers felt like if they had seized assets like Trump Tower, they were going to make him a martyr. And I think a lot of them feel like that today. I think this is going to really piss off a lot of people, particularly people of color, who feel like Democrats have over-incarcerated young African American men and women over the years.

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

Yeah. If you penalize him on these charges, there’s such a long list of other people that should be penalized, too.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

There’s definitely a bigger picture to all of this. I do respect the fact that he fights for himself and doesn’t back down. I’m not like him in a lot of ways, but I also respect him. With all of the BS that he puts out there, he does throw some truth out there also.

Has this trial decreased or increased your trust in the legal system? Has this trial decreased or increased your trust in the legal system?

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Not one person said it’s gone up. For the four of you, why has it gone down?

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

They were able to push the system in New York to speed up a trial before the election. Somebody moved a little puppet.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

I feel like with the legal system today, it’s Trump today, and it’ll be another candidate maybe in four years and another one in eight years.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

I’m seeing what John just said. When Biden was elected, the Republicans came after him.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I am fearful this will happen to someone on the left by a big Republican prosecutor in another city. And that does scare me.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Should Donald Trump be sentenced to prison time? [Pause] Nobody says he should.

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

Well, these kinds of charges he got convicted on usually don’t carry prison sentences. So I don’t see any reason why he should.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

It’s not a violent crime.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

If he goes to prison, not only is it a bad look, but it’s going to cost the taxpayers a fortune because you’re going to have Secret Service with him the entire way.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

If he does go to jail, they’re probably just going to build a cabin in Wyoming for him. But they’re not going to send the president to jail for this.

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

I agree with Ben. I think the verdict alone is doing enough damage for him anyway.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

OK, that leads to the next question. How the heck can you be undecided at this point? How could you still be undecided at this point between Joe Biden, Donald Trump and Robert Kennedy Jr.? Please explain it to me.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

As an independent, my No. 1 factor is economics. Full disclosure: Under Biden, I make more money. But under Trump, my money was worth more. And so that’s why I’m undecided. I don’t know who is the better side of the coin. Right now, I’m waiting to see who Trump chooses as his vice president.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Well, I think I disclosed earlier that the conviction makes it so I can’t imagine voting for Trump. Obviously, Kennedy is a nonfactor for me. Biden’s — oof. Oof. Got to love it.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I feel that, yes.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Yes, just that.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

How do you spell “oof”? How is The New York Times supposed to transcribe that? What is that word?

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

O-O-O-O-F. I mean, we’re just going to really go there. I can envision casting a vote for Biden and then needing a very stiff drink afterward.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

John, how can you be undecided?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

Well, I would say Biden now is off the table after today, but I think today’s action —

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Biden?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

— is off the table for me. Yes, Biden.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Because of the verdict?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

Yes, because —

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Do you find him a bit culpable for this, in a sense?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

I think Biden looks ungracious and looks incredibly weak to me. I can envision a scenario where a lot of undecideds who maybe won’t pull the lever for Trump run to Robert Kennedy Jr.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

But I’ve never had someone blame another candidate for the failure of the original candidate. And that’s exactly what you’re doing here.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

And I was very highly critical of Trump in 2019, and that’s what led to his first impeachment when he was trying to fish after and go after Biden politically. I thought that was a mistake. He lost my vote on that in 2020. But I don’t know. I guess I thought Joe Biden was above this.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

I agree with you.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

May I ask — is it based on anything that Joe Biden said after the verdict?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

I think it’s just a campaign tagline: Trump, convicted felon.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Jorge, explain why you’re still undecided.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Well, Biden has dirty hands on this. He’s a very weak candidate right now, so they need to make Trump even weaker. And you see it with Kennedy. I know that Kennedy is not perfect, but Kennedy doesn’t have a platform because they don’t let him have a platform. Biden looks bad. They need to do something to influence voters, something like this, so he can win the election.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Neshunda, why are you still undecided?

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

Basically the same with Jorge. It just seems like with the timing of the trial and everything, right before elections, it’s just a little off-putting for them to go to this level.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Shantel, why still undecided?

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

Well, this is changing my vote to not vote for Trump. The only other undecided thing is: What would be in the future if it gets appealed or something comes out in Trump’s favor? But I think this is swinging my way toward Biden.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Ben, you’re up. Can you explain why undecided?

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

A couple people have mentioned a massive judicial conspiracy of everybody going after him. OK, let’s talk conspiracy math here. The sheer number of people who would have to be working together to get something like this working just boggles the mind. And have you ever tried to get four people to agree on what to order for pizza? I just don’t see this working out. And at the end of the day, OK, fine. OK, I’m going to side with Jonathan on this one, saying, what’s the big deal about bribing Stormy Daniels? But I want a president who’s going to be able to cover up a $130,000 bribe to Daniels. If he can’t pull that off, I’m not going to trust him with the nuclear football. This seems like such an easy thing for him to screw up. I’m kind of leaning toward Biden now.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

James, why undecided?

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

The trial really didn’t affect me one way or the other. I’ll be more interested seeing who Trump picks for his vice-presidential candidate and maybe seeing a debate before I make up my mind.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

I agree with James.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

The more I see Trump dealing with this, the less confident I am in him. A president’s got to be a step apart from just a good person. And I have a problem with his integrity and ethics. I’m swinging toward probably Biden. And I don’t like Biden. I don’t like him.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

I’m with you. I’m absolutely with you, Frank.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

Got no ethics, either.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I voted for Obama in ’12, Trump in ’16, Biden in ’20. And here I am. And I am exhausted. And I will be honest with you, Frank, I will vote in this election. But I understand people who don’t vote or won’t vote in this election. I understand it. I voted for Trump because of the change I thought he would bring and the people he selected or was going to select in his cabinet. I voted for Biden because he preached for 12 months that he was able to unify the country. I don’t think he’s the worst president, but he is very weak. Very, very, very weak. I am disappointed. I’m in my 30s, and I am disappointed. I really am. Like I said earlier, the retribution is a factor. But to be honest, Frank, I don’t know who I’m going to vote for, and I don’t know that I will know until I step into that box. I really don’t know.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

Me, too.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

After the Trump verdict, what word or phrase describes how you feel about Donald Trump?

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Dishonest.

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

Untrustworthy.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

Chaotic.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

Martyred.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Incapable of telling the truth.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

Unethical.

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

Targeted.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Paper tiger.

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

Tough but a little crazy and divisive.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

A healthy test of every part of our democratic system.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

Unpredictable but memorable.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

And as you sit here today, what issue or quality or concern do you think your vote will come down to in the fall?

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

The candidate that does the least harm, because I don’t think any of these are heroes.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I’m torn between economy, democracy and reproductive rights.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

I’m going to piggyback on Frank. Do no harm. And I’ll add do no harm to our democratic republic.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

Economics. Who’s going to curb inflation? Who’s going to lower taxes? Who’s going to ensure prosperity in the job market? Money.

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

Also inflation, trade and foreign policy, with foreign policy being the most important, especially our interaction with Russia and China.

Moderator, Frank Luntz

Which country matters the most?

James, 53, Iowa, white, financial manager

China.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

The economy but, to be specific, affordable housing for our next generation. I think about my children, and I just think it’s going to be really tough for them to be able to afford to buy a new home, even an older home.

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

I’ll go with education. I was a teacher. The move toward vouchers, the going after teachers for acknowledging that Black people exist. It’s a complete and total disaster.

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

Being honest about the economy. It feels like we’re in a house on fire and everyone’s saying, “Oh, everything’s fine.”

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

Economy, specifically inflation.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Inflation.

Wendy, 57, New York, Black, administrative support

Immigration.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

John and Neshunda and Jorge, I’m curious about the economy and whether you believe that you were better off economically and financially under Trump or under Biden.

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

Under Trump, I made a lot less money than I do under Biden. But the money is stretched a little bit more now. We’re very middle class here. The dollar stores are $1.25 or $1.50 and higher.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Do you make more money now as a result of things that Biden and Democrats have done, or does it have absolutely nothing to do with them?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

I think Biden probably gets some credit in that I do think the job market is a little more competitive.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Neshunda, how about you?

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

Oh, under Trump things were definitely better. John mentioned affordable housing earlier. It’s almost impossible now for the younger generation to purchase a new home.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

And do you think Trump did anything that you would give him credit for, economically, or was it just kind of coincidence?

Neshunda, 36, Florida, Black, educational registrar

I would say more coincidence. But I don’t see it as anything as bad as it is right now.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Jorge, what about you? Were things better for you financially, economically with Biden or with Trump?

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

With Trump, 200 percent. I mean, inflation in California is out of control.

Hilary, 55, California, white, social worker

Yes.

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Fifty percent above than four years ago. Not 6 percent, not 3 percent, like they say. No, literally 50 percent. It’s crazy.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

What specifically is up 50 percent?

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Bacon went from $6 or $5 to $15.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

Now, how much of that is Biden’s fault, as opposed to the problems with Covid and so on? Prices went up, and vendors took advantage of keeping the high prices because, “Hey, we popped the prices up in 2020. Let’s see what the traffic can bear.” How much of that is Biden’s fault versus Trump’s fault?

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

Well, when you have the Federal Reserve and interest rates, that puts pressures on everything. Right?

Ben, 42, Texas, white, college adviser

Biden doesn’t control the Federal Reserve.

Jonathan, 37, Florida, Black, operations manager

But I think Patrick asked what Trump did that may have made his economy better. And I think the real answer is what Trump didn’t do. He didn’t send millions to Ukraine. He didn’t send millions to Israel. He didn’t promise college graduates that he’d forgive their debt. He wasn’t spending money that sent inflation through the roof.

Regardless of who you vote for, who do you think will win the presidency in November? Regardless of who you vote for, who do you think will win the presidency in November?

Moderator, Patrick Healy

John, why do you think Trump will win? And Frank, why do you think Biden will win?

John, 58, Pennsylvania, white, customer relations

If Trump’s at 44 percent and let’s say Kennedy and others are combined for 20 percent, that doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room for Biden.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

Well, at least from what I read, a lot of the undecided vote will be influenced by what happens in this particular trial and so on. And they may change their vote. Trump might be ahead in some of the surveys, but he’s not ahead by a lot. And some of these elections are going to be very close, so they’re going to be a few thousand votes, 10,000. It’s not going to be 90 to 10. It’s going to be 51 to 49. And I think that maybe enough damage may have been done that the independents and undecideds are going to swing toward Biden, just to play it safe. But there’s a lot of race left here between now and November. There’s still a lot of play left.

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Shantel, you raised your hand thinking that Trump would win. But over the course of the conversation, I know you’ve been thinking about maybe leaning toward Biden. Why do you think Trump is likely to win?

Shantel, 33, California, Middle Eastern, rental manager

I think because I see more and more people kind of leaning toward Trump these days, as time goes on. It seems like this verdict is going to energize people toward Trump. Maybe if they were apathetic or weren’t sure, maybe it kind of lights a fire in them.

If the election were being held today, who would you vote for? If the election were being held today, who would you vote for?

Moderator, Patrick Healy

Is there anything Biden or Trump could do at this point to kind of win you over?

Jorge, 52, California, Latino, medical field

If Biden would put under control the border and also try to fix the issue with inflation, then he will have my vote.

Logan, 31, Oklahoma, white, lawyer

I don’t think so. There’s not enough time for Biden to do anything. And Trump has shown me that he doesn’t do what he says or does the opposite of what he says. So right now, there’s nothing either one of them could do to completely win me over this early.

Frank, 65, Arizona, white, computer sales

I think Trump actually is the overall better president if he would not have all this baggage and all this other crap that he does, if he would just conduct his economic and foreign policy and forget about all these vendettas and bribing and unethical and this and that. If you get rid of all that, which I don’t see how he could do that by Election Day, he’s actually the better candidate. Barring that, it’s Biden.